Guest host, Peter Armstrong, conducted the interview.
It was such an honour to be interviewed by guest host Peter Armstrong on the program, CBC Radio One As It Happens, to talk about my reaction to the Statistics Canada report released on October 8, 2020: Experiences of unwanted sexualized and discriminatory behaviours and sexual assault among students at Canadian Military Colleges 2019.
Our discussion takes place at 46:58mins on the copied link. If you’d like to listen to a recording of the interview, you can connect to the program by clicking on the title for this journal post and you will be redirected to CBC Radio One As It Happens for October 9, 2020.
Also, I’ve included a cut and paste copy of the link, if you prefer to access the As It Happens interview this way: https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-2-as-it-happens/clip/15802618-worst-cases-scenario and here is a cut and paste copy of the link to the Statistics Canada Report: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/2020001/article/00011-eng.pdf?st=b9sWsLN4
The transcript of our conversation is posted as follows:
CBC Radio One As It Happens
Interview with Peter Armstrong
The following is a slightly cleaned up transcript of our discussion which aired on Friday, October 9th, 2020 at 7:30 p.m. EST time. The interview start time is 0:46:58hr on the recording timeline bar.
Peter: Nearly 7 in 10 Officer Cadets in Canada say they have witnessed or experienced unwanted sexualized behaviours while at Military College. That’s according to a new report from Statistics Canada. It’s based on a survey of 512 Officer Cadets from the Royal Military College in Ontario and the Royal Military College St Jean in Quebec. The report defines unwanted sexualized behaviour as unwelcome sexual attention, comments and jokes, as well as unwanted physical contact, including sexual assault. Kate Armstrong is the author of the book, The Stone Frigate: The Royal Military College’s First Female Cadet Speaks Out. We reached her in Nelson, BC.—Ms. Armstrong, 68% of the RMC cadets surveyed say they either experienced or witnessed unwanted sexual behaviour. What do these numbers say to you?
Kate: Oh boy. They say that there is a pandemic of sexual misconduct happening at the Royal Military College and I’m really grateful that Stats Canada conducted this arms-length survey to follow up and see what was happening within the College.
Peter: 94% of men, 91% of women who witnessed these incidents said they chose not to intervene or even report them, why is that?
Kate: I would say, RMC is really difficult to get through, it’s difficult to be there as a cadet, it’s hard to get in, and it’s hard to graduate. In effect, quite a bit of the time while you’re at the College its survival mode, and so if you’re witnessing someone else’s situation happening, it may be simple survival and focusing on what you need to do to survive. But I believe also that if there is a culture where reporting doesn’t actually lead to change, then it’s kind of like, why would I get into the midst of all that stuff if it actually won’t accomplish anything.
Peter: This culture though, has been flagged, promises have been made at the two Military Colleges. Why is it that we’re still here? It feels like almost no progress at all has been made.
Kate: (Sighs). Yah. When I heard the news last night, I was really kind of devastated and I was also grateful to have this information coming out. It’s so difficult to effect cultural change and I really truly believe that the cadets that are there, that did this survey, who had the courage to speak out, I believe that they are so brave to speak out from within the system. And if I was there in person with them, I would want to tell them that I’m proud of them, and also to say: I believe you, I’m sorry that happened to you, and how can I help you? Those are the things a person needs to hear when they’ve had a trauma such as sexual misconduct or a sexual assault. I’ve been out of the military for a while but I still remember and I still try to practice lots of the principles that I learned that were really valuable and solid for me. But one of them is—with everything that you do as an officer, you have your mission, the troops, and yourself. And the troops need to be your priority over yourself. And you need to be listening and standing in for the troops. So if people are coming forward and saying this kind of stuff is happening, action has to happen otherwise they will stop coming forward.
Peter: How do these numbers compare with your experience when you were at RMC?
Kate: Well, I was in the first class of women in 1980—first of all, it was forty years ago—but also the comparator of being in the first class with women and we had all men above us. So, statistically, I don’t even know how to wrap my head around that. But I will say that, while I was a cadet, I did have stalking, I had people interfering with my sex life, making jokes, catcalls, all those kinds of things were happening then and it’s distressing to me that that kind of stuff is still going on.
Peter: You know, after the 2015 report from retired Supreme Court Justice Marie DesChamps looking into sexual misconduct in the military, the Canadian Armed Forces said, said then, and said clearly that it was getting rid of this kind of behaviour, that it was going to take very clear and very specific steps, what’s changed, if anything, since then?
Kate: I don’t know. I’m not in them military anymore, so I can take things from the outside but I can tell you how I’m impacted. You know, like a couple of years after Madame Marie DesChamps report came out and then General Vance was basically discounting the whole thing in the press, basically saying without evidence or without police reports that he didn’t believe the victims. And that if there was a serious problem, he would know, or they would know within the military. I think it circles back again to the whole thing of leadership and really putting your troops first. And I believe that there is still a remnant of a culture where as a victim, if you come forward, you could be shamed. They might not say ‘oh you’re bad’ but will say okay we’re going to take you out of the unit where this other person was that perpetrated sexual misconduct on you, rather than removing the person who was the problem.
Peter: The Canadian Armed Forces responded to this report, they said, you know, that the Forces won’t tolerate sexual misconduct, looking into ways of addressing the problem in Colleges, that it’s already introduced some new programs, better training for faculty and curriculum for Officer Cadets, women’s support groups. What hope do you have that these new programs will lead to some kind of change in the future?
Kate: It’s such a big issue trying to effect cultural change, and I don’t even mean that just within Military College. There’s so much, there are so many layers that go into it, but truly I think the most important thing is making it possible for people to report and to be heard. You know, as I said earlier: I believe you. I’m sorry that happened to you. How can I help you? For people to actually be met with that. I’m not in the military, I don’t what is happening there, but they definitely have their work cut out for them. After 2015, and then seeing this come out now, and supposedly so much stuff was supposed to have happened and changed, I really don’t know that they’re getting there.
Peter: So many people that have written about this, that have studied this, that have looked at this say that until we solve this, the very strength of our military depends on our ability to address the needs and the basic necessities of life of those that are coming up through the military colleges. Is that a fair assessment?
Kate: I would totally agree with that. That’s part of my motivation of why I wrote my story, is because I believe that Canada’s leadership institutions, like Royal Military College, the people go forward into the military, become leaders in the military, but then also leave the military and become leaders in our culture, in our businesses.
Peter: Right.
Kate: RMC receives people from our culture, and there is a lot of stuff that happens before you get to post-secondary education where you’ve entrenched what your beliefs are, but RMC is in a place to take these people in and to truly, truly, do the work necessary to send out leaders that believe in equality and the equal rights of all peoples, and to send them out as leaders of that. But I really, when I hear the news that was happening yesterday, I just think that the mark is being missed.
Peter: Well, listen. It’s an important story and it’s an important thing to follow, so we really appreciate your insight into this.
Kate: Thank you, Peter.
Peter: Kate Armstrong is the author of the book, The Stone Frigate: The Royal Military College’s First Female Cadet Speaks Out. She was in Nelson, BC.
The News Article
A graduating class of officer cadets stand in the square at the Royal Military College of Canada during a graduating ceremony in Kingston, Ont., Friday, May 20, 2016. (Lars Hagberg/Canadian Press)
Most military cadets say they've seen unwanted sexualized behaviour at college
Vast majority of students surveyed say they've avoided intervening in such incidents
Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Oct 08, 2020 12:55 PM ET | Last Updated: October 8
Nearly seven in 10 Canadian military college students have witnessed or experienced "unwanted sexualized behaviours" in the past year, according to new research from Statistics Canada.
The StatsCan report, released today, also found that the vast majority of those students — 94 per cent of men and 91 per cent of women — reported choosing not to intervene in such incidents in the past because they didn't think the incidents were serious enough, or because they felt uncomfortable.
The military's campaign to stamp out sexual misconduct, Operation Honour, depends on members speaking up and reporting incidents when they see them.
The report conflicts with the results of a review conducted by an internal military panel almost four years ago. That review concluded that there was no culture of bullying and sexual misconduct at the Royal Military College of Canada, in Kingston, Ont.
That study specifically examined a number of troubling incidents, including three suicides, which the panel blamed on leadership tensions, negative role models, academic pressure and some cadets being afraid to ask for help.
The new StatsCan survey, conducted among officer cadets at both of the country's military colleges, also uncovered serious complaints in addition to questionable behaviour.
"Overall, 15 per cent of women [Canadian military college] students indicated that they had been sexually assaulted in the post-secondary environment during the previous 12 months, a proportion more than four times higher than men (3.6 per cent)," the report said.
That's the finding that stood out for Marie-Claude Gagnon, founder of It's Just 700, a group of volunteers dedicated to helping current and former members of the Canadian military cope with work-related sexual trauma.
"I think it's troubling to see that (during their college experiences) female cadets are almost twice as likely to experience sexual assaults compare to the national average of all Canadian post secondary institutions," she said Thursday.
"Cadets are the future officers in our military. They will soon be entrusted with power to enforce the law, here and around the world, and work with vulnerable populations. The perpetrators must be held to a higher standard. Victims must be adequately cared for so they can have the choice and the ability to keep thriving in their military careers and do the hard work that will be expected of them."
Unwanted sexual touching was the most common form of sexual assault reported by both women and men last year, according to the survey of cadets.
From jokes to contact to assault
The report defined "unwanted sexualized behaviour" as unwelcome sexual attention, comments and jokes, as well as unwanted physical contact — including sexual assault.
"Many students who personally experienced unwanted sexualized behaviours indicated that they experienced them on more than one occasion," said the report, written by researcher Ashley Maxwell.
Overall, 68 per cent of students said they had seen or experienced "unwanted sexualized behaviours" since 2019.
The survey said the most common type of behaviour "witnessed or experienced by both men and women was sexual jokes."
Gagnon said the only bright spot in the report is the fact that bystander intervention appears to be higher at military colleges than the national average for all post-secondary institutions.
"It shows that many cadets understand that the onus to fix sexual misconduct in the CAF is everyone's mission," she said.
In terms of degree of offensiveness, military college students indicated that the most offensive type of behaviour was repeated pressure for dates or a sexual relationship, the report said.
The survey of Canada's two military colleges — the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ont. and the Royal Military College Saint Jean, in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu — was conducted online from February to July 2019 and involved 512 cadets.
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said he was "deeply concerned" by the findings.
"This report shows that too many officer-cadets have experienced sexual misconduct or discrimination," Sajjan said in a media statement.
"Even one instance of sexual misconduct or discrimination is one too many. That is completely unacceptable and has no place in our institutions or our country."
He pledged to take "all action necessary to ensure that these educational institutions are safe and inclusive for everyone."
Despite the concerns, the survey found officer-cadets generally felt safe on and around their military college campuses, but women who experienced unwanted sexual behaviour, were less likely to feel safe.
Many of the findings of the StatsCan survey echo complaints about the Royal Military College that date back years and decades.
Before the military review panel produced its separate report in 2017, the college was the scene of several cases of sexual misconduct, including one where an officer-cadet received a severe reprimand and a $2,000 fine after pleading guilty to one charge of assault that involved touching a fellow cadet without her consent on several occasions in March 2013.
In 2017, the auditor general found fault with the institution and questioned whether future officers would get better training at civilian universities.
"Overall, we found that the Royal Military College of Canada did not provide officer cadets with adequate training in leadership and in the proper conduct expected of future officers," said then-auditor general Michael Ferguson.
"While the Royal Military College of Canada took action when incidents were reported, we found that the number of misconduct incidents that involved senior officer cadets showed that the Royal Military College of Canada had not prepared them to serve as role models for their peers."
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Defence and security
Murray Brewster is senior defence writer for CBC News, based in Ottawa. He has covered the Canadian military and foreign policy from Parliament Hill for over a decade. Among other assignments, he spent a total of 15 months on the ground covering the Afghan war for The Canadian Press. Prior to that, he covered defence issues and politics for CP in Nova Scotia for 11 years and was bureau chief for Standard Broadcast News in Ottawa.